Airview distance

[AToW.DaMan]

Can we reduce the setting? It seem strange to me that a pilot can see huge distances and a ground pounder cannot.

Firstly it reduces the amount of relism.

Secondly one solider should not be able to shoot and kill another when they are so far out of view (except of course snipers).
Until we add arty I dont want to die "from nowwhere", at least not all the bloody time!

DaMan

[Moody]

There's a difference between a man at 5 k/mh and a (expensive) helicopter moving at 200 k/mh. If you can see an infantryman that fast and manage to hit him, you are the 6 million dollar man. The tanks and AA can already "see" the helos, and the helos can -now, arguably to a less extent, already see them, so there's no discourse there.

We just had this thread and it passed- to what we have now, if you're being plucked off by helos one too many times A: welcome to the Russians' world and B. that's MAW's
fault.

Worse for the helos, even with 2000 meter view distance, at less than half that you can't even see the ground- especially at night.

[AToW.DaMan]

MAW|WO5.Moody;67479']There's a difference between a man at 5 k/mh and a (expensive) helicopter moving at 200 k/mh. If you can see an infantryman that fast and manage to hit him, you are the 6 million dollar man.

You are correct but it is not hard to hover and rocket fire a hill from great distance (one which you have been informed is full of troups.

[Jamie]

Yes but your not useing it to just "see the ground" , you can use it to watch for infantry and aim and fire.

I got killed way to many times by an invisable helo, which i knew could have been watching my squad and waiting for a time to shoot.

You dont need to be flying "half that" either, unless ofcourse your only purpose is so infantry cant see you. Oh wait, thats the problem.
And you dont fly at 200 while looking for targets.

Im not saying take it down, but atleast increase the available view distance for infantry to match that of the air. If you dont think it makes a difference, or cant handle it, just dont use it.

[[7]9|PA.ru!ner]

Lol he's just annoyed because we finally started doing what Super and Moody have been doing all along. Was the view distance really 2000m, it seemed like the default 1500 to me. Its hard to see at night period and 1.08 with the increased fog and washed out windshield didn't help.

[Jamie]

In those conditions, you can see targets 2k away.

[[IRT]Super64]

Lol he's just annoyed because we finally started doing what Super and Moody have been doing all along. Was the view distance really 2000m, it seemed like the default 1500 to me. Its hard to see at night period and 1.08 with the increased fog and washed out windshield didn't help.

About time you started taking notes from the Professionals. lol But true, i don't think we're still truely seeing 2000M. The fog still limits the distance some.

@ DaMan - If you think I need to see my target to shoot at it, you are incorrect. For me, view distance is of more use in planning my attack run entrance and exit. People think we're just sitting up there seeing little ants and vehicles driving and running around the entire battle field. Wrong. When in fact we rarely actually visually see anyone on the ground. If you're close enough to see the armor, they can see you and are probably firing on you by then.

[[7]9|PA.ru!ner]

I wish we got to see little ants and micro-machines driving and running around lol.

[Moody]

I guarantee you no chopper is hovering in a theoretical "sweet spot" watching until everyone is getting into a big group hug so he can send you to the island.

In this entire campaign the only time I've seen infantry was when I was flying WAY too low. When I came around to engage the Russian ant trail heading down to the castle, they were invisible (And I was promptly AA'd to death). Like Ruiner said, with the washed out windows of the transport birds, the speed, etc, 99.999 percent of the time we don't see what we're shooting at unless it's a vehicle. We're shooting flag poles.

Again, the vehicles can see us and defend themselves- and now we can't even lock them if they don't move (the TRex mod).

This complaint was raised months ago and that's why you see fortifications. Your AF, your SAM, and your Shilka/Vulcan drivers are those responsible for your protection. AA is effective- but only at short ranges anyway and typically you can hear the helos coming, or someone in sidechat, etc has warned you of inbound.

If their AF is controlling the skies- you're not safe. That's how it works, both ways. No, we could not see 2k. And at any safe altitude we can't see much ground at all. Low enough to see infantry = quick death by AA.

[[IRT]Super64]

I wish we got to see little ants and micro-machines driving and running around lol.

That would be pretty hilarious. Ah.... one day. :D

[Jamie]

I have had my fair share of experience in the air, and i know that you can be about 20X more accurate if you can see what your shooting at (especially if its the top of a hill).

My question is why are all you fly-boys so oposed to upping our view distance if you say you are more than 2k away. If that is so, then this wouldnt effect you so you wouldnt be posting against this?

[Moody]

Review this:
http://www.arma-tow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7387

I had and still have no objections to it. Quite a few did. None of the above posts were against infantry having it. We were merely both sides' pilots defending our right to it.

Really, this discussion should probably have taken place in that thread.

Keep in mind, with aircraft, 2000 doesn't equate being able to see 2000 at all altitudes. ArmA's lovely system encloses you in a shroud of fog the higher you go.

[[IRT]Super64]

1st|Cpl.H1GH;67511']
My question is why are all you fly-boys so oposed to upping our view distance if you say you are more than 2k away. If that is so, then this wouldnt effect you so you wouldnt be posting against this?

Who said we "fly-boys' were opposed to it? I never said that. In fact I believe the proposed view distance change was going to be 3000 max for aircraft and 2000 max for ground troops.

But for all the guys wanting farther view distance there were almost equal amounts screaming against it. But for the record im all for giving people a set view distance menu.

[Jamie]

If you take the scores from that poll (read it and note the "all")
Ill take

Yes please - +2 Points
This is ok i have my reasons why this will help me - +1 Point
Im 50/50 on this - 0 Points
This is not ok and i have my reasons why not to use it - -1 Point
No thanks - -2 Points

"All player to have custom view distances "


It would be...

+28

In other words, according to that vote, the people (for the players by the players) wanted it for "all players" but that wasnt listened to, so that thread was kinda pointless.


All just my conclusion form that thred. My opinion. They never said that they would go with the most votes or anything.
Just incase it seems im picking a fight with the UN, im not. :)


But for all the guys wanting farther view distance there were almost equal amounts screaming against it. But for the record im all for giving people a set view distance menu.
Dosnt seem so... equal numbers, from the poll?

[[IRT]Super64]

Read my above post. The one where you selectively ignored where I stated the end action resulting from that poll. The part that said:

In fact I believe the proposed view distance change was going to be 3000 max for aircraft and 2000 max for ground troops. It actually was listened to. Also guys like Haley did express a no vote.

I voted no, because it would be a uneven playing field in my eyes on the infantry front. I run on an old Socket A computer.

[Jamie]

SOrry, i had only just finished reading over my post and saw yours, so i added that in.

I know you didnt vote no and arnt against it, but im saying there were only 8 out of 44 people (who voted) and you said "there were almost equal amounts screaming against it". Im just saying it wasnt equal numbers...

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

Campaign Two it is more likely that we will increase the default distance of the Infantry to 2000 than to reduce the Helo's default. But not before the end of Campaign One.

We will test in the FUN Battles immediately following Campaign One.

But also remember that even with ViewDistance set to say 3000 or even 4000 you cannot see & differentiate friend or foe at ranges greater than about 1954m according to Videos presented to the MOD team by Super64.

The only issues as Coolio has pointed out is Armor with their ability to zoom much more than an infantry Sniper could. So we have to TEST to find a default ViewDistance for Infantry & Armor.

This is work in progress that needs everyone on the same page in both accurate knowledge of how the ViewDistance actually effects real battleday results.

Right now I think the majority of people incorrectly feel that if an Infantry A has 2000 viewDistance set versus say another Infantry B at 4000 then the Infantry A is at a disadvantage. And the current FRAPS Evidence of tests says that beyond 2000 there is not disadvantages outside of a player needing and deciding to voluntarily turn down their viewDistance to below 2000.

We will test and everyone can experience the differences and be better educated to vote for Campaign Two changes.

[Moody]

I said review it. The poll was iffy from the start- originally biased some claimed- and then somewhat vague after being "fixed". Not to mention moods and opinions changed when different suggestions and compromises were made.
Polls are left when they have clear options, not a yes, no maybe bit which leaves open interpretation.

But if you read the actual posts, you'll get the feeling that what we have is what a lot of people supported- no for ground, yes for air.

I'm not endorsing, complaining, or anything- just trying to indicate that.

[[A]Haley]

Atow Community,

You can put Air View Distance up to 10K just leave tanks and infantry at 2000.

That is all,
LCpl Haley

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

1st|Cpl.H1GH;67522']
In other words, according to that vote, the people (for the players by the players) wanted it for "all players" but that wasnt listened to, so that thread was kinda pointless.



A point of clarification here.
The thread was listened to.

The vote got us to the next step which is at what value do we set the default distance and the max distance to.

This takes time. And right now there are more people wanting the HALO script and the OverNumbers polished up than to getting the viewDistances right. And half our MOD team are working on Campaign Two right now. So have some patience are find someone with MOD & Mission skills that is willing to come in and help out.

Thanks for your input. Keep it coming. We are listening.

[Steveak44]

Maybe I missed the thread explaining it or if I did not then an ocassional closed thread by the Council saying this is what the Council did and why might avoid some the questions, concerns, and confusion here.

[BazookaBoy]

that's a fair point Steve

[[IRT]36th|CPL.OV3RLORD]

Just saying in a tank at max range no infantry boy see you with his bino as i shot penlty of russain in the face trying to spot me :D but what im saying now is that we get engaged by a helos all the time and they don't show up on radar and you get no vis at all unless they are spitting at you. is there a way to make it so you can see more in the sky/further looking into the sky than on the ground as that will be the best (kinda like the evo view option)??

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

Overlord, you probably got Laser Designated. And even if not...
A tank can already look further in the sky with its multiple zoom rate in the Turret. They just cannot elevate as high as they want.
Also should be able to hear the helo coming if your engine is off in 1.08
Plus your team mates should be communicating to you where the helos should be helping you but that is where I will stop. Because many times better teamwork overcomes some of these so called balance issues.

[Spyder]

I think we need a setting for soldiers on the ground. I wanna turn my settings down in urban environments and increase it in the open areas. Hey if you have the computer you should be able to use it, if not you wanna turn your settings down as much as possible so you can play with good FPS.

[Raptor-6]

TB|Sgt.Overlord;67615']Just saying in a tank at max range no infantry boy see you with his bino as i shot penlty of russain in the face trying to spot me :D but what im saying now is that we get engaged by a helos all the time and they don't show up on radar and you get no vis at all unless they are spitting at you. is there a way to make it so you can see more in the sky/further looking into the sky than on the ground as that will be the best (kinda like the evo view option)??

Hey Overlord now you know how us infantry feel when you kill us from a distance that we can't see you. Seems only fair that the helo's can do it to you!! :D

[Moody]

And we can't see the SAM... a proper circle of death.

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

Dren's seems to find my SAM alright LOL.
Damn him. :)

[[7]9|PA.ru!ner]

MAW|WO5.Moody;67692']And we can't see the SAM... a proper circle of death.

When was the last time that you saw the AA soldier that shot you down? If you had seen him, he would have been covered in rockets before you were in effective range of his Strela (which is a few hundred meters).

[[A]Haley]

Atow Community,

Isn't there a Airview distance for the troops. So you can see Aircraft further off?

That is all,
Cpl Haley

[[ATOW]BarmyArmy]

As a ground pounder I have stated I'd like to see view distances opened up to all players.

When my view in the binos is limited by view distance it is very frustrating when following ant trails, or hunting a sniper.

[Spyder]

Well if you guys wanna cap the view distance, then fine...I guess.

Set your limit if it makes people happy. But, I still haven't seen the set-view-distance incorporated for us guys on the ground. I would PREFER to LOWER/RAISE my view distance for the specific area I'm in.

Now, as far as not being able to tell friend from foe at distances over 2000m, that's just pure disorganization. You should be keeping your army informed of your position via map marker or TS. If the SL dies then you should update the map of your position so your not getting shot by friendlies.

I do see the argument with un-matched view distances. But, a helicopter approaching an LZ needs to see it further then 2000m. Keep in mind that infantry can hear the helicopter and hide. The big and loud helicopter can just fly really fast so everyone can see it.

To sum up, increase the distance allowed for everyone to 10k, then add a target reticule on the AA launchers so even if you can't see the helicopter you can shoot it down.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

Now this is a map where view distance is an issue:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=70;t=73113;st=0

Totally tank country.

[[IRT]36th|CPL.OV3RLORD]

okay heres my point if a chopper can see the ground from further away im fine but shouldn't we in turn make that chopper visable from ground units at a longer veiw? IE air view distance 2000, ground veiw distance 1500, pilot veiw distance 2000.
im saying this as u cant hide behide ANYTHING when in the sky and you should be able to be spotted at a longer range instead of hearing a chopper then when it is right above you and only when is right above you you can see it
im a bit sick of being long bombed from 2k away with FFAR's and i know they are FFAR's and not seeing them visaullay or even on the tank radar
Last battle we were getting chased and FFARed at by a cobra (Jimmy) and we had NO visaul and NO radar blimp for him and he was hitting very close to us and was following us all the way back to Corazol
now what i would like to see is that a chopper can see 2k of land but in trun people on the ground can look up and see 2k around them in the sky so this chopper isn't Mr Invisable Killa, But the ground veiw distance should stay the same

one more thing all these people saying "i invested in a good comp i should get a higher veiw distance" YOU didn't buy that new comp JUST FOR ARMA, there are other games and/or progarms out there that need/use that new fandangle 1,000,000 gtx extrem superclocked Triple SLi Nvidea GFX card and that new 20 cored CPU with 1 terabyte of RAM .... the game is based on skill not how good your shit is, if you think it bout how good your shit is maybe you need to see a pasltic surgeon on enlarging a centain body part...

[Steveak44]

TB|Sgt.Overlord;67825']
one more thing all these people saying "i invested in a good comp i should get a higher veiw distance" YOU didn't buy that new comp JUST FOR ARMA, there are other games and/or progarms out there that need/use that new fandangle 1,000,000 gtx extrem superclocked Triple SLi Nvidea GFX card and that new 20 cored CPU with 1 terabyte of RAM .... the game is based on skill not how good your shit is, if you think it bout how good your shit is maybe you need to see a pasltic surgeon on enlarging a centain body part...

Who are you to say why someone buys a new rig? I'll bet there is someone in the community who has built their rig or bought new components just so they can run ArmA at a high level. Equipment usually plays a big part on how enjoyable your gaming experience is, doesn't it? I'd guess many players would like to enjoy ArmA at its fullest and are willing and able to pay for it.

Maybe we should put a warning in the new member area. Something like, "Welcome to ATOW. I hope you did not spend any money on your rig to get the most out of ArmA 'cause we are gonna gimp it." or change the slogan..."ATOW: By Players for Players with average to crappy rigs"

[{RET}Snake Raper]

As a muti-platform, multi-game gamer, I can say that ArmA running well for me is a bonus. I built my rig to play games, all games, not just ArmA. It would be an average rig in comparison to one who built just for ArmA, but it is higher than the average thing out there.

It is coming back to the point of picking something based on some rigs, vice all rigs. There are players in this tourney that already have settings bottomed out, pushing the requirement up could (I say could, not will), push some of these people off. I know this is not necessarilly Overlord's point, but it is related to the same concept of everyone being able to see everyone at the same time.

I would be all for split view distance that would make ground spot ground at the same distance, air spot air at the same distance and ground spot air (and vice versa) at the same distance. I am just not all for a view distance of 10000 as this would definately have an impact on our battle day numbers.

[[DI]I|Cpl.Dren]

make it 1900max to all. (and option to decrease it for people who cant handle it)
Still most of the firefights for infantry are less than 1000m.
ATM i think tanks are still not as effective as they should be, but we are going in good direction with them!

[Spyder]

1st|LCpl.Dyson;67784']

...then add a target reticule on the AA launchers so even if you can't see the helicopter you can shoot it down.

Anyone have objections to this???

[[DI]I|Cpl.Dren]

i allways tought that AA launchers did have that circle on targets?

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

TB|Sgt.Overlord;67825']okay heres my point if a chopper can see the ground from further away im fine but shouldn't we in turn make that chopper visable from ground units at a longer veiw? IE air view distance 2000, ground veiw distance 1500, pilot veiw distance 2000.
im saying this as u cant hide behide ANYTHING when in the sky and you should be able to be spotted at a longer range instead of hearing a chopper then when it is right above you and only when is right above you you can see it

Immediately following the end of Campaign One we will have Fun battles that will include the following proposed ViewDistance Default Settings and Maximums.

ARMOR - Default: 1500 MAX: 1500
INFANTRY - Default: 2000 MAX: 2000
AIRCRAFT - Default: 2000 MAX: 3000

But remember weather effect are still going to effect how far you will be able to see on any given battleday.



im a bit sick of being long bombed from 2k away with FFAR's and i know they are FFAR's and not seeing them visaullay or even on the tank radar
Last battle we were getting chased and FFARed at by a cobra (Jimmy) and we had NO visaul and NO radar blimp for him and he was hitting very close to us and was following us all the way back to Corazol
now what i would like to see is that a chopper can see 2k of land but in trun people on the ground can look up and see 2k around them in the sky so this chopper isn't Mr Invisable Killa, But the ground veiw distance should stay the same


Sounds like you guys didn't have CAS at that very moment or perhaps during a time where your AirForce was returning for missiles & flares. Which can happen. I know there are times with I have to deal with Super64 and our Infantry get killed by Moody at times our Air Force is returning for missiles & flares. This is just going to happen from time to time for both sides.

Viewdistance increases are not going to stop this frustration. Even if Infantry see a helo at 2KM they won't be able to shoot it at that distance. If I hear a helo I take cover. You will still have to rely on Team Work to minimize getting killed from above.

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

RB|1Lt.Dren;67860']i allways tought that AA launchers did have that circle on targets?
They do if you look closely thanks to the TrueMod.

[[IRT]36th|CPL.OV3RLORD]

ARMOR - Default: 1500 MAX: 1500
INFANTRY - Default: 2000 MAX: 2000
AIRCRAFT - Default: 2000 MAX: 3000



Why dose an infanty guy get to see more than a tank. I hope this is a typo

[{RET}Snake Raper]

I think it was to offset the zoom advantage.

[[IRT]36th|CPL.OV3RLORD]

no infanty guy needs to see 2k away plus no sniper can shoot that far ethier so its stupid 1500 to 1750m would be better

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

When the infantry uses his Binoculars on a clear and sunshiny day it is reported to me that one can see about 2KM and identify vehicles at least or men standing up. But the infantry cannot shoot that far unless they have a Sniper rifle and those are limited.

It has been reported to me that armor especially tanks can when they engage the top level of zoom can see well past 2KM & can shoot that far.

Since infantry largely cannot kill people directly with their binoculars or standard rifles they we will start them out at 2000 VD. Since Tanks can directly attack what they can see using their zoom. They will be initially tested at 1500 VD.

These are the reports I am receiving and I am not just taking words. I have received video and screen shots. So these will be the initial TEST parameters so that EVERYONE can *feel* & *experience* the changes and be better educated to properly comment. Perhaps prove some of the evidential reports I have received right or wrong. And adjustments will follow.

There will always be a few people not happy with the end result. Our goal is to minimize those that are unhappy. This is a process that will begin with testing where the possible out-of-balance results cannot significantly effect the outcome of campaign.

[{UN}Coolio (Retired)]

If your concerned with the current rocket bombardements, you might wanna consider the consequences of increasing the distance from wich your ass can be spoted, as the tagets of these attacks usaly are spoted by ground units. I can see why recon units would be excited.

[[7]9|PA.ru!ner]

If your concerned with the current rocket bombardements, you might wanna consider the consequences of increasing the distance from wich your ass can be spoted, as the tagets of these attacks usaly are spoted by ground units. I can see why recon units would be excited.

Or lased by ground units and then Mandoed from even further away than a rocket strike.