Adjustable view distance for all players

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

Ok this is so that every has the option to change up/down there game view distance there would have to be with in a range of 200m-2500m.
This would allow the ones with a crappy computer to set there view distance accordingly and for them of us with super PCs can take advantage of what we payed for without unbalancing the tourney as each player can set there own view distances dynamically as and when they please.
currently the max unit draw is set to 2000 in most bis models (view lod 20 = 2000m).

As a heads up there has been a vote passed that pilots get 2000 VD any how so this is more a of a ballanceing tool for the footy and tank drivers/gunners.

So what do you think?
Plz vote
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[[IRT]Super64]

I have to admit, this is some odd wording for the 4 choices. lol

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

First there was talk about adding to tanks.
Next I see a vote about custom view distances for all including boots on the ground.
I am willing to vote yes for those in tanks. But currently without any personal testing for balance, I will vote no for Boots on the ground ViewDistance changes. For now, Campaign One, I would rather keep all boots on ground viewDistances equal at 1200.

[{UN}.Nurmdog]

I have mixed feelings about this. Currently Armor is quite deadly at 1200m, not sure if we need to improve that. Helicopters just got bumped down a notch in this game with the recent change in Mando's. I don't think that View Distance will help the boots on the ground except when using Binos or the single sniper rifle per side. What is the goal of the view distance change? Is the goal to help choppers and tanks?

[Steveak44]

If I'm translating right I see the choices as 3 'yes' and 1 'I don't care' correct?

I must have missed this discussion. Could someone give me a link or the pros and cons? A PM is fine if you don't want to rehash it here.

[{UN}Coolio (Retired)]

It is the opinion of those who suggest making higer view distance available, that it primarly will be a visual improvement (eye candy) as you will be able to see more of your surroundings. This view was put forth with air units in mind, but some fell that an increesed view distance should be an option available for everyone. Then some think that it shouldnt be changed at all.

Examples: NOTE that at a certen distance the engien will stop drawing objects like trees and houses depending on the set view distance. This includes units. Past this point only the surface is rendered, so ex. you wont be able to see units at say 1100m, even if you have 1200m view distance.

Screenshots are from beta 1.11

1200m
http://www.coolio.dk/stuff/1200.png

2000m
http://www.coolio.dk/stuff/2000.png

2500m
http://www.coolio.dk/stuff/2500.png

Things to consider:
visual improvement
easy navigation
improved spotting (recon)
weapon/unit balance
low spec/high spec pc balance

[{UN}Coolio (Retired)]

If I'm translating right I see the choices as 3 'yes' and 1 'I don't care' correct?

Yes thats how you get the reply you want ;)
Two negative responses has been added to the poll.

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

still don't see how its unbalanced any more then it is already for low end users against high end users due to the fact high end = 60FPS at 1200 low end -10FPS at 1200 now giving the option to every one to be able to adjust VD is not a unballancer it is in fact a balance tool that you can balance your self..

@CooliO don't edit my poll giving 4 against and 2 for that's just not on bro
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[Highfox{RET}]

This is all still a little bit cryptic for me to be happy to register a vote!?
The wording in the poll makes me rather suspicious ;-)

[{7}21|Burns]

lol I think the UN want to trick us into answering this for and not against. :P

I think its a fine idea except that those with low end PCs could be fed up but if they get attacked from beyond 1000m then they cant fight back anyway so there isnt to much of a problem

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

Ok this is pissing me off the UN are not trying to push a vote for or against we are trying to balance an upcoming tourney change.

WHY DO I BOTHER?
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VAPORIZER.ORG (http://vaporizer.org/)

[[AToW]Maxwell]

I would vote yes if it were for planes only. The planes need a view distance of more than 1200 because they move so fast. For anything other than planes, it is unfair. It seems like it will either force people to upgrade their pcs or quit.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

I agree on the pilots issue.

The view distance is fine for us on the ground, but it is useless for the pilots. Give them greater view distance.

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

I would vote yes if it were for planes only. The planes need a view distance of more than 1200 because they move so fast. For anything other than planes, it is unfair. It seems like it will either force people to upgrade their pcs or quit.
How is that its as simple as if your rig cant handle it drop your VD why would it be unfair to give every one an equal ablity to change there settings how they wish.
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[{RET}Snake Raper]

I think what he is getting at, is that it will be unfair if player A has a rig that allows him to set a VD of 2500, and player B can only set 1000.

Player B is going to move thinking he is safe (because he can't see beyond 1000), when the reality is that he is being watched the whole time from beyond his capability. Player B is not going to stay in the tourney long if he cannot see the same as everyone else as it is in effect creating a minimum rig requirement.

The VD should be the same for all ground based units, regardless of the actual number. It should be increased for pilots so they can be more effective in their support.

Allowing players to individually set a view distance may make sense from the point of view of FPS, but creates a balance issue that is to the advantage of the better rig/connection.

[Moody]

I was under the impression that the biggest concern was some being able to see others from farther away than those with lower end systems.

I heard that at least Supe and Jimmy had tested this and determined there was no either no or little advantage with a longer view distance when it came to seeing units.

But even if there is, which I imagine is possible.

What's this mean for an infantryman? Not much, terrain and objects are going to limit his view anyway, with the rare exception of maybe a sniper from a high perch. It's been a while since I've been runnin around down there, but if you can shoot me passed 1200 meters- by all means, you deserve the shot.

Helos rarely see infantry as is anyway, so letting them see further shouldn't hurt infantry's AA abilities. Everyone in the tourney knows to not shoot a Stinger/Strela 1500 meters away.

1200 meter view distance is like flying with a blanket over your head, and it's easy to lose situational awareness as even as basic as knowing where exactly you are (when throwing in night time, comms, threats, etc...). AA lethality has increased as well, so knowing where not to go is even more essential than ever.

My biggest concern is the difference between armor and helos. The Air Forces are in dire need of the increase, whether it will enable them to see units from farther away or not.

So, yes, helos should be able to see farther than currently. So armor should be able to defend itself at the same distance...

But I also want to point out is that regardless of whether you see the target or not, the ATOW mod puts a ring around the location of your locked target. So by this, armor and helos would be able to engage eachother whatever the individuals' view distance.

If this isn't convincing, or proven otherwise, there is a way to lock helos and armor at a shared view distance- on which we could agree. This may be a solution.

I'll take whatever view distance I can take, and I believe both sides' pilots have agreed. The SAM will not be affected at all and neither will handheld AA. Armor will still be able to defend itself if there is no SAM cover.

So, I'll vote for this (uh.. one of the three...)- but I'm more than willing to compromise if the idea of individuals setting their own is too controversial.

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

How is that its as simple as if your rig cant handle it drop your VD why would it be unfair to give every one an equal ablity to change there settings how they wish.

The perception currently is this.
If you are player (A) with a bad computer & has low FPS at VD of 1200 would never increase it above 1200.

Enemy Player (X) has good computer & high FPS at VD of 2000
Enemy Player (Y) has bad computer like Player (A) and low FPS at VD of 1200

Now knowing what we know about these players here is the perception (right or wrong)

All Players on the ground here...

Player (A) is in Corozol.
Enemy (X) is 1500 meters away from Player (A).
Enemy (X) sets his VD to 2000.
Enemy (Y) is 300 meters away from Player (A) hiding in building with zero visibility.

Player (A) and Enemy (X) are both looking straight at each other.
The perception (right or wrong) that Enemy (X) can see Player (A) but Player (A) cannot see Enemy (X) even though looking straight at him.
Player (A) thinks its relatively safe and moves in a risky manner.

Enemy (X) communicates to Enemy (Y) the location of unsuspecting Player (A).
Enemy (Y) catches Player (A) off-guard and kills Player (A).

Player (A) doesn't even know that Enemy (X) was even there using VD of 2000. Player (A) couldn't see him.
No Player (A) could set his VD to 2000 but his FPS would be so bad that we could not react as fast in CBQ.

This is the perception that with some Infantry having VD of longer ranges than other Infantry that it can be unbalanced in this way.

Aircraft its less of an issue because they are loud & we have the SAM to kill them at range. So I see no imbalance here with Aircraft getting adjustable VD.

Tanks same issue since it is loud and you can hear it coming and Aircraft can kill the Tanks so I see no imbalance with Tanks getting adjustable VD.

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

So you say there is no imbalance with air and armor getting better VD now in your example you say bad guy 1 communicates to bad guy 2 this is true but chopper/tank 1 could also do this tanks have this lovely thing called zoom and when not in motion is a silent sniper with a very very big gun.
So there is an imbalance there also.

At the end of the day i feel and i hope others feel that giving every player the ability to have changeable VD is not an imbalance any more then it is giving air and armor better VD.

You wont balance well there is balance.
If your issue is that with arma 1.11 you cant have 2000VD or 2500VD with out frame drop then to tell the truth you NEED a better rig as you cant be meet the required spec the game requires.
________
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[BazookaBoy]

Ok this is pissing me off the UN are not trying to push a vote for or against we are trying to balance an upcoming tourney change.

WHY DO I BOTHER?


I think burns was commenting on the wording of the vote options, which I would agree were confusing and have been changed twice since the vote was opened.

I have already voted in the council forums that air should have a higher view distance as flying with the current level is a handicap for both sides and as viper explained can be increased without a large impact on balance. The fact that some pilots may have lower spec machines and choose not to increase is catered for by having it adjustable up to a max value.

Infantry can realistically only see to 1000m anyway and cannot really engage to well at that distance anyway so I think we do not need the maximum for infantry increased. If there is the desire of players with lower spec rigs to be able to drop the VD in order to gain FPS this we should look at giving them that ability. They can then decide whether higher FPS or VD is more important to them.

Tanks have a pretty big zoom and so can be affective at longer ranges. I would say that at the moment we need to look at the impact that increased VD for air has. If the protection of the SAM is not enough and air becomes to dominant over armour again then maybe armour VD could be looked at again, but an increase for armour will have knock on affects on the ground troops so I wouldn't want to rush into it.

So my vote would have been

Allow all players to have the ability to lower there VD from the current maximum if desired?

Yes

No

[[ATOW]BarmyArmy]

The only issue I can see is with this is use of M1A1s as Command and Control and as ground based spotters, in the same way that Helos have been used as spotters.

Getting spotted/id'd or even killed by a tank 1800m away that you can't see because of your 1200m view distance might be more of an issue.

The zoom on the M1A1 is comparable with that of the Mk14 SPR, ie. very high.

BA

[Jamie]

IMO have maxes depending on state.

eg.

Max view distance in a help/plane is 4-5k
Max view distance on the ground is 2.5-3k
Max view distance in a vehcile (eg armour) is 2.5-3.5k

THat way there isnt that much of an advantage, but enough.

eg. on the ground, with a laser des. you need as much as you can get, the current is too low for that IMO.

Also for the variable, if a soldier is in a city (lower FPS) then they can put it down, but if they go out to a open piece of land, with no buildings to lower FPS then they can put it up a bit.


Thing is, at the moment we are all suffering because a minority of users have PCs which cant handle it. ArmA is a fairly demanding game, and people are goign to have to accept that.

[[7]9|PA.ru!ner]

I misread the question a bit. I don't think it is necessary for infantry to have that high of a view distance, so I would like to change my vote. Sometimes it can be a bit limiting as it is now on the ground where I seem to be limited to around 700 m. A little bit higher for ground troops might be nice but not a huge increase.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

Personally I would like to see the VD for ground units at 1000 as it beyond the engagement range of infantry but within that of armour. Set air to (this I am guessing at) 2000 to allow them to see the battlefield before they plow into it.

Adding the ability for a user to reduce this based on environment is a good idea, but it should not be able to go above the agreed upon maximum.

ArmA might be a demanding game, but that doesn't mean we should shake off the people who have systems at the bottom end of the spec sheet. If that were to happen you may as well make two battles, one for dream rigs and the other for normal people.

[Jamie]

Dream rigs?
Yeh right

If you cant run arma at 2k view distance with settings on low then you have a bad PC (in teams of a gaming PC)
If you have one of these computers, you can just live with the low view distance and not increase it.
If you are saying it wouldnt be useful as, you cant engage from that range, why would that be a problem?

Its not all about "engagement range" its about spotting and being able to see enemy positions.

At the moment it is just too low, and i bet if we upped it to 2k, people wouldnt lost more than 2-3fps.

I did a couple of tests and i lost about 1.5 fps from 1k to 2.3 k

[{UN}.Nurmdog]

People probably know this, but a reminder of the System requirements.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_System_Requirements


I am NOT trying to exclude people from playing when I say this. But the Recommended specs are for 2 year old hardware, 3 GHz CPU, 1 GB of RAM, a 6800 or better. That is not minimum, it is recommended. The minimum hardware is 3 years old and can be purchased in a used PC for the $50 it cost to buy ArmA.

I tend to lean towards letting people crank up their distance, it is mainly eye candy however it might make things unfair. To be honest, I am still riding the fence on this one.

I would rather perform a test of some sort using ATOW mod and players, just to see what happens with Armor and Air. Will it be unbalanced? Will it allow Tanks to snipe infantry at 2000M when the infantry have no recourse? Will it allow Helos to Air Strike Armor at 3000M away unchallenged? I don't know, that is why we would need test(s) to evaluate. The challenge is getting many people on a non battle day to test, possibly before or after battle.

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

nurm its tried and tested take a look at my gunship DM i have it all setup in there ready for use as for your helo killing a tank at 3000 this would not happen as the max draw a vehicle can see is 2000m so they wont see the tank unless given exact locations via radio form footy's the only issue i see with the VD is in fact people with (low end spec pc/Crappy configured PC) but yet when i think about it if there PC is this poooo (cant see over 1200) then they must be suffering already on battle days hence the option to lower VD in this case there best bet is to drop there VD to 800 or less and just stick to city's.

One more thing that's is kinda amusing me is we are a community that's dedicated to keep it as close to real life war but yet we are limiting our self with 1200m.

AT
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[{7}21|Gef.Jupiter]

I'm the owner of a low end system and still feel that increasing infantry view distance would be nice and realistic. And regarding the balance it wont have any affect compared to increasing armour or air. And if I end up suffering from this it's just perfect motivation to upgrade my hardware.

[[DI]I|SSGT.Sprite]

if we stick with 1.11, the preformance is improved, most people I have spoken to have boosted their VD up a fair amount loosing around 2-5 fps

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

SquadServer has just removed 1.11 from our server (without proper notice).
1.09 server crashes with more than 50 players so we cannot use 1.09. So we are forced to us 1.08.

[[IRT]Super64]

SquadServer has just removed 1.11 from our server (without proper notice).
1.09 server crashes with more than 50 players so we cannot use 1.09. So we are forced to us 1.08.

Add this to the long list of "Squad Server Things That AToW Players Love" :mad:

[{7}9th|Maj.ArMaTeC]

why? and what the hell
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[{7}9th|GinSoakedBoy]

Any chance of getting 1.11 installed at some point? Or is it just, no 1.11 ever?

[Moody]

What he told me was that 1.11 causes a memory leak IF it crashes, and so they removed it without notice.

[{7}21|PrairieGhost]

I think everyone on the ground should be set at the same VD. Part of PC gaming is that fact that no one has the same PC and leaving them out because of that isn't right in my opinion.

[{UN}Coolio (Retired)]

Voted 50/50 as I think there is a need for the corent "fog of war" on the ground, but I support increasing view distance for AIR.

[{7}21|Quadro]

I would choose “other” if it was there because “no thanks” sounds like I’m happy the way it is, which I’m not! I generally think 1200m VD in any roll, foot, armour or air is too low and should be at least 2000m for everyone. The only problem is that not everyone would be able to run at 2000m.

I don’t have a problem with Air having a VD increase but that then will mean the Armed forces will need a VD increase meaning the Infantry will need a VD increase and so on.

The tournament is getting older and people are getting better computers so I’d do what’s best for the future and notch the VD up by 800m for everyone (2000m Max). It would only course a minute imbalance for fast and slow comps. Air will be a little happier, armour and infantry also. For most people it’ll improve game play anyway.

Suggestion:

Perhaps it would be a good idea to put a poll up to see what peoples VD is when everything is set to low, might be pleasantly surprised.

[Steveak44]

Make it wide open. The quality of your rig has always been part of gaming. Like so many other types of competition the quality of your equipment matters. I invest a lot into mine and would like to get the best experience I can from my investment.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

Make it wide open.

Negative. There is more to the game than just all of the pretty and being able to see 10km. This island is small when you compare it to the time it takes to fly from one side to the other. A shorter view distance helps to make the island feel bigger and adds an element of surprise. What fun is it to be able to see everything and anticipate everything?

I still say limit ground view to 600-1000 and air to 2000(? not a pilot).

My 2IC was gaming since T1 with a 5yo rig and he stuck with it until he upgraded a few weeks ago. He wouldn't have been able to stay competitive and would have left if he walked into a tournament that would exclude him based on his rig. I would have lost a hell of a soldier and leader not to mention a friend.

I say if someone can play ArmA, he can play in the tourney.

[Steveak44]

I don't know what you experience on battleday, SnakeRaper. I think there aren't that many people on this giant map so I spend most if it running around and looking at the scenery. I'd like it to be pretty.

If someone can play ArmA, he can play in the tourny and set his machine to his preferred performance level.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

It may not be preferred if it is dictated.

[[DI]I|Cpl.Dren]

so I spend most if it running around and looking at the scenery. I'd like it to be pretty.
Iv been wondering were you have been vanish my pain, lets meet up in Corazol Steve :D

[Steveak44]

you got it, buddy. Just stand still for a minute, would ya?;)

[[DI]I|Cpl.Dren]

i would still lag warp everywhere (at least you would say so :D )

[{7}21|Quadro]

I still say limit ground view to 600-1000 and air to 2000(? not a pilot).Bond and I were talking about this and to have a chopper seeing double the view distance of infantry is extremely scary. It'll be like having a invisible flying tank that could over watch an objective, since Strelas/Stingers would be rendered useless because its out of visual range.

It's beyond me why people want different rolls to have different view distances. Wouldn't it just make more sense to let everyone have 2000. To let pilots have 2000 and not infantry because "not all infantry can run at that" doesn't make sense.

One thing I miss in IC was the long range engagements between infantry, it was awesome, rare but awesome.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

The higher view for the pilots is intended to help them fly, if they use it for recce purposes, there is nothing wrong with that as you can see more from the air anyway. You don't need a visual to fire AA at them, so it is not that large an issue. Helos are scary even with the same view distance, they should be but they should be afraid to get too close.

My "argument" about the vd is just so we don't exclude people based on what they have or can afford. If all people can reliably run with 2000m vd, then great, no problem (although I do like the closer range for more reasons and one is of course the ability to move unseen at long range). But if they can't then what is more important? Longer view or more players?

There has been mention of hating being wiped off hills and such by helos, the longer the vd, the more likely it is that infantry are going to call in an air strike because they can see farther.

There are pros and cons to each and I have stated that I like the split vd and favour a higher one for air units. It is not the way it has to be, it is just my opinion on the matter.

(all of this talk of vd is making me feel dirty)

[{7}21|Quadro]

(all of this talk of vd is making me feel dirty)

Same here :(

[[DI]I|Cpl.Dren]

http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles/a55_vd.jpg

Axis, not meantioned Russian

[Raptor-6]

You don't need a visual to fire AA at them, so it is not that large an issue.


LOL, so what direction do you propose we use for aiming?

[Moody]

By all means, I implore you, please fire your Strelas and Stingers at 1200 or 2000 meters, whichever be the case.

[{RET}Snake Raper]

You may fire at the ground.

[[DI]I|Cpl.Dren]

How about we add also the clouds addon also?
That how helos cant see "so good" for high altitude but are still bit more safe from AA launchers and visual anyway from ground

[[UN]SGen.ViperMaul]

RB|1Lt.Dren;65396']How about we add also the clouds addon also?
That how helos cant see "so good" for high altitude but are still bit more safe from AA launchers and visual anyway from ground

April Fools was yesterday. :)

[[7]9|PA.ru!ner]

You can hear what direction they are coming from a long, long ways away. And Moody is right, you shouldn't be engaging them with handheld AA at a distance anyways.

There is no way a helo can spot a hidden soldier at 1000m or whatever the 2000m translates into anyways. Except maybe the gunner in a hovering Cobra getting lucky zoomed all the way in... but a helo hovering near hostile territory is pretty risky.

[Moody]

Compliments to my Russian counterpart; total agreement.

[[A]Haley]

Atow community,

I voted no, because it would be a uneven playing field in my eyes on the infantry front. I run on an old Socket A computer. I am sure I am not the only one here with an old PC. This would give an unfair advantage to us old PC users. However If you want to raise the view distance for the AIR I do not see a problem with that. So for Tanks and Infantry they should stay around 1200-1500 and air can have 3000 or something like that.

That is all,
LCpl Haley